Discussion:
satellite boxes
(too old to reply)
Tom Del Rosso
2011-08-02 23:04:37 UTC
Permalink
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon thought
4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box, so I lost a
big part of the recording.

Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even in
the wee hours?
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Martin Riddle
2011-08-03 00:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.

Cheers
Jim Yanik
2011-08-03 14:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
why should software/firmware updates wipe your recorded data on the hard
drive?
seems like bad coding.
or maybe it's intentional.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Martin Brown
2011-08-03 14:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Yes. But it should hold off doing anything if the unit is in use.
Post by Jim Yanik
why should software/firmware updates wipe your recorded data on the hard
drive?
seems like bad coding.
or maybe it's intentional.
Some of them refuse to work after firmware updates if you have upgraded
the hard disk with an unapproved higher capacity unit (ie. not the
overpriced bespoke version bought from the ripoff merchants). eg.

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/modified-sky-boxes-freezing-after-upgrade-488537

This was a while ago. There is a similar problem with the BBC iPlayer on
some portable Apple platforms at present (though in this case it sounds
more like generic incompetence than profiteering).

Regards,
Martin Brown
David Ruether
2011-08-03 15:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Yes. But it should hold off doing anything if the unit is in use.
I was watching a program a bit after 2:00 AM last night
that I was very interested in, when, "ZOINK", the cable
box rebooted! Most annoying, since it takes a VERY long
time to complete the process. I have complained (to no
avail) to the cable company, pointing out that there is
often good programming on at times some of us consider
still good for "prime evening viewing". UGH!

--DR
Nico Coesel
2011-08-03 16:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
why should software/firmware updates wipe your recorded data on the hard
drive?
seems like bad coding.
The box simply doesn't work during an update. Its like re-installing
the OS on your computer.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
***@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Les Cargill
2011-08-03 19:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nico Coesel
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
why should software/firmware updates wipe your recorded data on the hard
drive?
seems like bad coding.
The box simply doesn't work during an update. Its like re-installing
the OS on your computer.
*Sigh*.

--
Les Cargill
Gene E. Bloch
2011-08-03 18:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
why should software/firmware updates wipe your recorded data on the hard
drive?
seems like bad coding.
or maybe it's intentional.
That's not what the OP reported. He said that the update interrupted the
recording that was taking place at the time of the update. That is a
natural consequence of the update.

The provider should be a little smarter - and *kinder* - about when
updates occur...
--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
Tom Del Rosso
2011-08-03 19:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
why should software/firmware updates wipe your recorded data on the
hard drive?
seems like bad coding.
or maybe it's intentional.
It didn't wipe my recording, but the box was reset so I recorded black after
that until the next time the box got a remote command.

My DVR is my own and not part of the cable box.
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John S
2011-08-03 16:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
That doesn't necessarily solve the problem. I have Verizon and wanted to
record a movie in the early hours of the morning while I slept. They did
the same to me as they did to Tom.
Mark Fergerson
2011-08-03 17:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
That doesn't necessarily solve the problem. I have Verizon and wanted to
record a movie in the early hours of the morning while I slept. They did
the same to me as they did to Tom.
I have Comcast.Same same.

There's also a menu selection to search for other occurrences of a
program and to pre-set a recording. I record while I'm at work when
possible, and it usually is even if occasionally a day or three later.


Mark L. Fergerson
John S
2011-08-03 19:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Fergerson
Post by John S
Post by Martin Riddle
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box,
so I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even
in the wee hours?
I have an old Directv box. The first few years I had it, there were
firmware updates. Those occurred during the night, AM hours.
I think it was their policy.
Cheers
That doesn't necessarily solve the problem. I have Verizon and wanted to
record a movie in the early hours of the morning while I slept. They did
the same to me as they did to Tom.
I have Comcast.Same same.
There's also a menu selection to search for other occurrences of a
program and to pre-set a recording. I record while I'm at work when
possible, and it usually is even if occasionally a day or three later.
Mark L. Fergerson
Yes, of course. However, I wanted to see the movie as soon as it was
available, so I chose the nearest date which was in the early hours of
the morning to record it.

John S
Tom Del Rosso
2011-08-04 18:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S
Yes, of course. However, I wanted to see the movie as soon as it was
available, so I chose the nearest date which was in the early hours of
the morning to record it.
Some channels are duplicated into east and west coast feeds, with a 3 hour
offset. If I record at night I sometimes do both, since there is also the
weekly test of the Emergency Alert System.
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SoothSayer
2011-08-05 00:20:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:18:17 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
Post by Tom Del Rosso
weekly test of the Emergency Alert System.
Monthly. First Wednesday.

Weekly tests are for things like Amber Alerts and other more local
alert management systems.

Oh wait... you might be one of those "over there" people.
Jan Panteltje
2011-08-03 09:00:04 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:04:37 -0400) it happened "Tom Del Rosso"
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon thought
4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box, so I lost a
big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even in
the wee hours?
--
Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.
Sounds like US.
I am in Europe and have a PC running Linux with a satellite card in it.
No satprovider originated software upgrades are possible.
But there is enough software around to watch anything.
I can record sat TV and make nice DVDs from it.
Only drawback is perhaps that the PC consumes some more power than a settop box,
but it is on most of the time anyways.
BTW many stations are free to air here.
Haupppauge makes a lot of sat TV cards, also for the US system.
Tom Del Rosso
2011-08-03 20:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
Sounds like US.
I am in Europe and have a PC running Linux with a satellite card in it.
No satprovider originated software upgrades are possible.
But there is enough software around to watch anything.
I can record sat TV and make nice DVDs from it.
Only drawback is perhaps that the PC consumes some more power than a
settop box, but it is on most of the time anyways.
BTW many stations are free to air here.
Haupppauge makes a lot of sat TV cards, also for the US system.
I have Hauppauge but I didn't know they make satellite cards. What kind of
box do you need then, between the dish and the coax? Is there just a
converter mounted on the back of the dish?
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Jan Panteltje
2011-08-04 07:50:47 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:40:09 -0400) it happened "Tom Del Rosso"
Post by Tom Del Rosso
Post by Jan Panteltje
Sounds like US.
I am in Europe and have a PC running Linux with a satellite card in it.
No satprovider originated software upgrades are possible.
But there is enough software around to watch anything.
I can record sat TV and make nice DVDs from it.
Only drawback is perhaps that the PC consumes some more power than a
settop box, but it is on most of the time anyways.
BTW many stations are free to air here.
Haupppauge makes a lot of sat TV cards, also for the US system.
I have Hauppauge but I didn't know they make satellite cards. What kind of
box do you need then, between the dish and the coax? Is there just a
converter mounted on the back of the dish?
I am not sure what you mean, but the setup is dish -> LNB -> satcard -> software.
with
common interface
|
CAM
(=conditional access module)
|
card

I dunno if your sat program are encrypted, but there are several Hauppage
models that accept a common interface that will accept a card.
You would have to check with that sat provider if their cards work in something like this
setup.

I have 2 sat cards, an old skystar 1 (that has a car interface),
and a wintvnova (Hauppage) that does not.
In the old days there was much software to decrypt programs,
these days people get executed for mentioning the existence of software to do things like that,
so I cannot comment on that, although this morning I had a cool idea on how to do Europe wide cleansing
without viewers even needing the internet....
LOL.
Tom Del Rosso
2011-08-04 17:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
I am not sure what you mean,
I assume you don't have waveguide going into the card, but I don't know if
there is a standard downconverter that is the same for all satellites.
Post by Jan Panteltje
but the setup is dish -> LNB -> satcard
->
software.
with
common
interface | CAM
(=conditional access module) | card
I dunno if your sat program are encrypted, but there are several Hauppage
models that accept a common interface that will accept a card.
So that module must be specific to the satellite you use, but who sells
those?
Post by Jan Panteltje
You would have to check with that sat provider if their cards work in something like this
setup.
OK. I had no idea that satellite subscription services offered that kind of
hardware.

Does free satellite simply bypass that module?
Post by Jan Panteltje
I have 2 sat cards, an old skystar 1 (that has a car interface),
and a wintvnova (Hauppage) that does not.
In the old days there was much software to decrypt programs,
these days people get executed for mentioning the existence of
software to do things like that,
so I cannot comment on that, although this morning I had a cool idea
You can record before decryption? I thought that would be impossible
because some stages of the tuner hardware need frame sync or something,
although I don't know the structure of MPEG.
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Jan Panteltje
2011-08-04 19:21:37 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:33:37 -0400) it happened "Tom Del Rosso"
Post by Tom Del Rosso
Post by Jan Panteltje
I am not sure what you mean,
I assume you don't have waveguide going into the card, but I don't know if
there is a standard downconverter that is the same for all satellites.
There is a standard downconverter, 'LNB' for the normal commercial sats.
Post by Tom Del Rosso
Post by Jan Panteltje
but the setup is dish -> LNB -> satcard
->
software.
with
common
interface | CAM
(=conditional access module) | card
I dunno if your sat program are encrypted, but there are several Hauppage
models that accept a common interface that will accept a card.
So that module must be specific to the satellite you use, but who sells
those?
No it works like this:
The transmitter 'transponder' in the satellite has a bandwidth of about 38 MHz.
In that bandwidth a stream of data called transport stream, 'TS' is send.
This is a packetized (word?) stream, consisting of little 188 byte packets.
In each packet is a stream indentifier called program ID, 'PID".
As the name says, the PID says which TV channel the data in the 188 byte packet belongs to.
The receiver hardware or software parses the TS stream and filters out the program you want to watch.
There are many types of other streams transmitted apart from the program stream, each with their own PID,
some hold information about what PID belongs to what SID (service ID),
the service ID being that what the sat provider gives you.
So for example lets look at a real case, I run my software and type:
show bbc2 <- 'show' is is a script that I wrote that looks up BBC2 and returns the sat positon and SID).
Then it dumps this at the terminal (I have edited it so it becomes shorter, and added some comments):

show: selected program=bbc2
show: using astra2 26.0 E <- sat position 26 degrees east of due south.
show: current_angle=26.0 E
same angle 26.0 E <- was already pointing to this satellite, so no need to power on the dish motor.
show: move_command=0
xine: no process killed <- uses xine as player for the program, kills any old instance if it was still running (facilitates zapping).
executing /usr/local/bin/xdipo -c 1 -g '26.0 E' -f 10773 -p h -s 22000 -a 8192 || exit 1 <- starts xdipo (x dish positioner) I wrote that program.
xdipo: HAVE LOCK <- reports tuner PLL locked.
show: have LOCK <- 'show' script now knows about it.
show: no player specified, using xine as default player <- what is says.
show: using xine -D -gf stdin:/
executing /usr/local/bin/xdipo -c 1 -g '26.0 E' -f 10773 -p h -s 22000 -a 8192 -o | /usr/local/bin/jpinfo -p 6302 | /usr/local/bin/jpvtx | xine -D -gf stdin:/
Note: -a 8192 passes the whole transport stream, all PIDs, it is nice to have te commadn line, then I can cut and paste if needed.
-s 22000 is the 'symbol rate', -f 10773 the frequency, -p h stands for horizontal polarisation.
-o dumps to stdout (Unix), and the signal is then piped via 'jpinfo', 'jpvtx' to 'xine'
-p is the servcie ID (SID for BBC2
jpinfo finds the PIDs for this service ID, and passes only those to the programs further down the chain,
All this stdin to stdout, the old Unix way.
xine gets fed a TS with only mpg video and mp2 audio, it has a build in demuxer for .ts format.

jpinfo-0.2 By Jan Panteltje <- 'jpinfo' finds the PIDS for the gives SID in the PID nr 0 in the transport stream, PID0 always has that info, is always parsed.
jpinfo: program_number=6302 pass_all_flag=0 language=eng fast_flag=0 info_only_flag=0 debug=0
jpvtx-0.2.2 (c) Jan Panteltje 2005 <- videotext (teletext / ceefax decoder, something Europe only has I think, on screen text and info.
This is xine (X11 gui) - a free video player v0.99.4. <- xine media player has started
(c) 2000-2004 The xine Team.
xdipo: HAVE LOCK <- already knew that :-)
pid 0, using program_number=6302 <- this is from the 'show' script, once manually entered.
PAT seclen=41 <- the PAT is an other stream in the TS that hold info releated to that SID.
Read 44 bytes - Found 8 services <- seems there are 8 services 'SIDs' transmitted by this transponder.
Found program number 6301 <- not what I was looking for, just testing one by one upwards.
Found program number 6302 <- got it, this is what I want.
Program number: 6302 PMT pid: 258 (0x102) <- The PAT tells us that more info about this SID is in the PMT stream with PID 258.
pid 5100 (0x13ec) video type is mpeg2
Language = eng pid 5101 (0x13ed)
Language = NAR pid 5102 (0x13ee)
found unknown stream in pid 5103 (0x13ef), type 0x6, sub type 0xf.
pid=3846 pid type=11 (0x0b), dunno what pid this is.
pid=3847 pid type=11 (0x0b), dunno what pid this is.
pid=3848 pid type=11 (0x0b), dunno what pid this is.
pid=3849 pid type=11 (0x0b), dunno what pid this is.
found unknown stream in pid 5104 (0x13f0), type 0x6, sub type 0xf.
found unknown stream in pid 3840 (0xf00), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 3841 (0xf01), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 3842 (0xf02), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 3843 (0xf03), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 3844 (0xf04), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 2321 (0x911), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 2322 (0x912), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 2323 (0x913), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
found unknown stream in pid 2329 (0x919), type 0x5, sub type 0x52.
setting PIDS for program number 6302 (0x189e): < jpinfo takes decisions :-).
video_pid=5100 (0x13ec) <- mpeg2 stream.
found 2 audio channels, pid: 5101 (0x13ed) 5102 (0x13ee)
selected_audio_pid=5101 (0x13ed) language=eng <- this is main audio, I happen to know the other one is narrated (NAR).
no HbbTV pid found <- new type of teletext, Germany RTL etc uses this.
no ac3 pid found <- normal audio is mp2,
no teletext pid found
no subtitle channels found
no ecm pids found <0- the ECM hold encryption information, BBC2 is not encrypted, so this stream is not preset.

Now about this ECM:
IF the stream on that PID is encrypted, then it is encrypted with 'triple DES'.
A new key is needed (transmitted) about every 10 seconds.

The CAM (conditional access module) has a special crypto system that differs from sat provider to sat provider,
and, with data found via the ECM stream, decrypt against the keys in your card, and every 10 seconds send the new
generated correct key to the triple DES decoder for that PID.

So each crypto system has a CAM, some CAMS can decode several cryoto system, all in combination with the right viewing card.
The CAM module fits in a slot in the sat box (or card) and the card fits into the CAM module.
Sometimes the CAM software is already integrated in the sat box, not normally the case for a PCI sat card.
The question that you must answer is:
Is there a CAM module for the crypto system your sat provider uses?
If so does the PCI sat card accept such a module?
And has it the correct software support?

Does the sat provider sell a CAM module?
Post by Tom Del Rosso
Post by Jan Panteltje
You would have to check with that sat provider if their cards work in something like this
setup.
OK. I had no idea that satellite subscription services offered that kind of
hardware.
Does free satellite simply bypass that module?
Free satellite does not encrypt any PIDs, the triple DES decoder is not activated,
and the CAM module (either in software or hardware) is not needed.
Post by Tom Del Rosso
Post by Jan Panteltje
I have 2 sat cards, an old skystar 1 (that has a car interface),
and a wintvnova (Hauppage) that does not.
In the old days there was much software to decrypt programs,
these days people get executed for mentioning the existence of
software to do things like that,
so I cannot comment on that, although this morning I had a cool idea
You can record before decryption? I thought that would be impossible
No problem recording an encrypted stream.
But if you ever wanted to decrypt it (and view it) then you also need to record the
PIDs for the ECM PAT PMT etc that hold the changing encrypted keys.
That then later can be decrypted by the card - CAM combination.
Recording is never a problem, I can simply record a whole transponder.

This can be nice if for example BBC1, BBC2, BBC3 are on the same transponder and good movies on at the same time.
You need a lot of disk space though, 38 Mbits/s gives several GB / hour.
Post by Tom Del Rosso
because some stages of the tuner hardware need frame sync or something,
although I don't know the structure of MPEG.
No no frame sync, maybe you are talking about Viterbi decoding, that needs to be locked.
I usually have zero bit errors all the time, but sometimes a big thunder cloud completely wipes ou the signal,
but that is rare (mayfe 2 times a year).
TTman
2011-08-03 20:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon
thought 4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box, so
I lost a big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even in
the wee hours?
--
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The existing firmware should be smart enough to know a recording is in
progress and delay the updates until that event is complete.... AFAIK that
is how Virgin Media do their updates.
three_jeeps
2011-08-10 04:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Del Rosso
I recorded something from my Verizon Fios box yesterday, and Verizon thought
4pm was a good time to upgrade the firmware and reset the box, so I lost a
big part of the recording.
Do DirectTV or Dish Network boxes ever do any nonsense like that, even in
the wee hours?
--
Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.
Yes, I have (err had until about 2 weeks ago) Dish Network. Yes, they
do updated in the middle of the night. I don't know if it kills a
recording that is happening at the same time...never had a recording
going when dnld occured.
I dumped Dish in favor of FIOS....

J

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