Discussion:
Video signal speed
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I.N. Galidakis
2010-01-26 12:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?

Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed to a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.

After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show up on
the monitor?

Many thanks,
--
Ioannis
Richard Crowley
2010-01-26 16:41:35 UTC
Permalink
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?
Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed to a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.
After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show up on
the monitor?
The speed of electricity is the same as light: 300000 km/sec
But it slows down a bit (~30%) in typical coaxial cables, etc. so only
around 200000 km/sec. That means that an electrical signal can go
around the planet 5 times in one second. For all practical purposes
there is no delay.
I.N. Galidakis
2010-01-26 18:24:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Crowley
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?
Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed to a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.
After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show up on
the monitor?
The speed of electricity is the same as light: 300000 km/sec
But it slows down a bit (~30%) in typical coaxial cables, etc. so only
around 200000 km/sec. That means that an electrical signal can go
around the planet 5 times in one second. For all practical purposes
there is no delay.
Thanks. I am a bit confused because when I search for "speed of electricity" I
get on Wiki the same as "Drift Speed", which is of the order of 0.00028 m/s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_speed

This is nowhere close to 200000 km/sec. Are we talking about the same thing or
am I misunderstanding something here?

Thanks again,
--
Ioannis
Gene E. Bloch
2010-01-26 19:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Post by Richard Crowley
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?
Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed to a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.
After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show up on
the monitor?
The speed of electricity is the same as light: 300000 km/sec
But it slows down a bit (~30%) in typical coaxial cables, etc. so only
around 200000 km/sec. That means that an electrical signal can go
around the planet 5 times in one second. For all practical purposes
there is no delay.
Thanks. I am a bit confused because when I search for "speed of electricity"
I get on Wiki the same as "Drift Speed", which is of the order of 0.00028
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_speed
This is nowhere close to 200000 km/sec. Are we talking about the same thing
or am I misunderstanding something here?
Thanks again,
You are misunderstanding something.

The drift speed of the electrons is not the speed of propagation of the
signal. Follow the other links in the article you cited.

Additionally, there is a lot of processing in the computer once the
signal reaches it. This is a delay that might be barely perceptible, or
in the case of DVRs, quite noticeable, since part of the delay in DVRs
is due to recording the signal (so you can pause it, etc.) before
displaying it.
--
Gene Bloch 650.366.4267 lettersatblochg.com
I.N. Galidakis
2010-01-26 20:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene E. Bloch
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Post by Richard Crowley
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?
Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed to a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.
After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show up on
the monitor?
The speed of electricity is the same as light: 300000 km/sec
But it slows down a bit (~30%) in typical coaxial cables, etc. so only
around 200000 km/sec. That means that an electrical signal can go
around the planet 5 times in one second. For all practical purposes
there is no delay.
Thanks. I am a bit confused because when I search for "speed of electricity"
I get on Wiki the same as "Drift Speed", which is of the order of 0.00028
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_speed
This is nowhere close to 200000 km/sec. Are we talking about the same thing
or am I misunderstanding something here?
Thanks again,
You are misunderstanding something.
The drift speed of the electrons is not the speed of propagation of the
signal. Follow the other links in the article you cited.
Additionally, there is a lot of processing in the computer once the
signal reaches it. This is a delay that might be barely perceptible, or
in the case of DVRs, quite noticeable, since part of the delay in DVRs
is due to recording the signal (so you can pause it, etc.) before
displaying it.
Thanks. There's no computer involved in my experiment. Just a camera and a
monitor, but I think I get it. Is there any way to relate this "speed delay"
that Richard talks about (200,000 km/s vs 300,000 km/s) as a function of
copper's resistivity or conductivity?

In other words, how does one get that (reduced) speed of 200,000 km/s for
coaxial cables?

Any sources for that greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,
--
Ioannis
Richard Crowley
2010-01-26 20:20:35 UTC
Permalink
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Post by Richard Crowley
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?
Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed
to
a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.
After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show
up
on
the monitor?
The speed of electricity is the same as light: 300000 km/sec
But it slows down a bit (~30%) in typical coaxial cables, etc. so only
around 200000 km/sec. That means that an electrical signal can go
around the planet 5 times in one second. For all practical purposes
there is no delay.
Thanks. I am a bit confused because when I search for "speed of electricity" I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_speed
This is nowhere close to 200000 km/sec. Are we talking about the same thing or
am I misunderstanding something here?
Yes, I should have refered to the propogation speed of the signal
(information), not to the "Speed of Electricity". I just don't give
mollecular physics much thought in my everyday activities. :-)

Drift Speed is the "speed" at which the physical atoms of copper
move. It is zero for all practical purposes. That is clearly NOT the
same as the speed at which the electrical signal moves. Signals move
by pushing (or attracting) adjacent electrons in the copper atoms,
NOT by physically moving the atoms themselves. If fact when
transmitting AC signals (such as audio, video, or mains power)
there is NO net movement because the flow switches direction
very rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity ....
"The Speed of electricity refers to the *relatively slow movement*
of free electrons or ions through a conductor in the presence of
an electric field, also known as drift velocity. It is often confused
with the *propagation speed of an electromagnetic wave*. It is
the electromagnetic wave that usually conveys information (data),
not the movement of electrons.

Free electrons in a conductor vibrate randomly, but without the
presence of an electric field there is no net velocity. When a DC
voltage is applied the electrons will increase in speed proportional
to the strength of the electric field. These speeds are on the order
of millimeters per second. AC voltages cause no net movement;
the electrons oscillate back and forth in response to the alternating
electric field.[1]

In contrast, electromagnetic wave propagation is much faster, and
depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the
wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air.
Propagation speed is affected by insulation, such that in an
unshielded copper conductor it is about 96% of the speed of light,
while in a typical coaxial cable it is about 66% of the speed of light
[2].
I.N. Galidakis
2010-01-26 21:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Crowley
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Post by Richard Crowley
"I.N. Galidakis" wrote ...
Post by I.N. Galidakis
Does anyone know an approximate value for the video signal speed?
Alternatively, a camera records images in real time and sends the feed
to
a
monitor connected to the camera with a wire of length L.
After how much time after reception from the camera will the image show
up
on
the monitor?
The speed of electricity is the same as light: 300000 km/sec
But it slows down a bit (~30%) in typical coaxial cables, etc. so only
around 200000 km/sec. That means that an electrical signal can go
around the planet 5 times in one second. For all practical purposes
there is no delay.
Thanks. I am a bit confused because when I search for "speed of electricity" I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_speed
This is nowhere close to 200000 km/sec. Are we talking about the same thing or
am I misunderstanding something here?
Yes, I should have refered to the propogation speed of the signal
(information), not to the "Speed of Electricity". I just don't give
mollecular physics much thought in my everyday activities. :-)
Drift Speed is the "speed" at which the physical atoms of copper
move. It is zero for all practical purposes. That is clearly NOT the
same as the speed at which the electrical signal moves. Signals move
by pushing (or attracting) adjacent electrons in the copper atoms,
NOT by physically moving the atoms themselves. If fact when
transmitting AC signals (such as audio, video, or mains power)
there is NO net movement because the flow switches direction
very rapidly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity ....
"The Speed of electricity refers to the *relatively slow movement*
of free electrons or ions through a conductor in the presence of
an electric field, also known as drift velocity. It is often confused
with the *propagation speed of an electromagnetic wave*. It is
the electromagnetic wave that usually conveys information (data),
not the movement of electrons.
Free electrons in a conductor vibrate randomly, but without the
presence of an electric field there is no net velocity. When a DC
voltage is applied the electrons will increase in speed proportional
to the strength of the electric field. These speeds are on the order
of millimeters per second. AC voltages cause no net movement;
the electrons oscillate back and forth in response to the alternating
electric field.[1]
In contrast, electromagnetic wave propagation is much faster, and
depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the
wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air.
Propagation speed is affected by insulation, such that in an
unshielded copper conductor it is about 96% of the speed of light,
while in a typical coaxial cable it is about 66% of the speed of light
[2].
Terrific. Seems like the answer I am looking for is 66%*c, since this is also
given in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable

under item RG-59/U in a table below.

Thanks to all who responded.
--
Ioannis
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